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Need something stronger than a blue penguin for this
yep. We fought most of the night about it. Fuck anti-vaxxers... I'm so over it.
Explain it very simply to her or show her this comment:
When our bodies encounter a virus or bacteria or other foreign substance, the thing which fights the invaders is our immune system. The foreign substances will be attacked by our cells and broken into bits of protein which are recognized as being "not-self" - since our immune system is generally pretty good and picking out what is and isn't a normal part of our body. Our immune cells respond by multiplying slowly, producing antibodies that will specifically target the pieces of the invaders that they encounter to mount an attack. This takes a while but eventually the body clears the infection and you'll have memory cells which can respond stronger and faster if you encounter that invader again - this gives us a degree of lasting protection to specific microbe invaders.
A vaccine is a shot that contains inactivated or dead parts [proteins] of these invaders - it explicitly lacks the parts of the invader that make us sick. When it is injected into the body, it is taken up by immune cells which then present them to other cells in our immune system as if they were encountered during an actual invasion. The big difference? Your immune system is mounting a response before you've encountered the pathogen - so you don't get sick.
Why is this important? If you encounter the actual live version of the invader, your immune system already has a memory cell specific to that invader. So when he tries to break in, he'll immediately be fucked up by our immune cells.
Vaccines are exclusively for generating an immune response against invaders. Our immune system is not involved with the development of Autism or the brain - it is too busy focusing on keeping our house in order.
For the first six months, your baby will need breast milk so that the mother's antibodies [which are in the milk] offer continued protection - around 6 months, the baby will start to be able to produce its own antibodies: but the child should not be switched off until 1 year old to maximize protection and begin a very slow transition to cow milk [first with diluted cow milk to anticipate and avoid a cow milk allergy developing].
Autism is a spectrum of developmental disorders that impact ability to socialize, overall behaviour, etc. The biggest risk factors for autism - having a first degree relative [parent, child, sibling]/affected member of the family as well as maternal age. This means that there are two big factors: genetics and environment.
What in our environment can cause autism? Research is ongoing - but scientists are focused on: - viral infections [which our immune system must fight] - medications - pregnancy complications - even some air pollutants
So wait, if viral infections can possible cause autism then I shouldn't vaccinate my kids! Right?
No. WRONG. The reason viral infections could possibly contribute to autism is because of what happens when a child gets sick - the invader creates trouble in the brain and this is what ultimately causes developmental problems. You lower the risk of autism by providing the child with vaccinations against viral invaders. Why's that? Again, because the vaccine is providing inactivated or dead elements of the invader to stimulate the immune system into having memory cells that fight off the invader when it really invades. If there's an army waiting to fight the invader, it won't have the chance to spread far before it is destroyed - which limits the ultimate effect that it will have on the baby's development.
Good luck OP. Godspeed.
It'd be amazing if Anti-vaxxers read. Look at Flat-Earthers - all they simply need is a basic understanding how SPEED works, but yet they stubbornly think they are right. I don't give a damn about Flat-Earthers since they probably don't take part in scientific communities anyway. But Anti-vaxxers on the other hand... how are they different from criminals?
The thing I’ve had the most difficulty with in dealing with some anti vaxers is not the immune system part but that they think there’s some crazy conspiracy to put dangerous chemicals and I shit you not “aborted fetuses” in the vaccines that go into children. When that stuff starting coming into the argument I had to walk away, I just couldn’t deal with it anymore and that was with my sister regarding my niece and nephew. I worry about those kids so much. Luckily our parents don’t buy that bullshit and my dad pulled the dad card and said “my grandchildren will not die to a preventable disease and if they do their blood is on your hands” it was a tense lunch. Fuck the whole antivax movement it’s so damaging and it splits families apart.
As a medic, I appreciate the effort, but that won’t work at all. Fear usually trumps logic: if they’d listen to that explanation they wouldn’t be in the boat they’re in now.
I would suggest not throwing around the term anti-vax. It makes it too much of a battle betweeen you two. You really don't want her thinking she has to defend anything. Don't argue it like a political point of view. Just try to explain facts.
This. Would you rather OUR CHILD die from a completely preventable disease OR maybe have autism (there are zero actual research studies that prove causation, but still, even if THEY DID, how is dead better than autistic?).
I'd warn that this argument line could lead into a difficult fighting ground where other medicines they approve of will save the child from the disease when it hits and crap like chickenpox parties. Its an avenue towards more pseudoscience for a sophist. Have to remember they aren't necessarily anti medicine, they're against whats in the medicine. They believe a safe form of what is normally a toxic substance will harm their child(Thimerosal, the mer is mercury). They have zero evidence to support that it is dangerous and no links to autism outside anecdotes, YouTube "experts". and dubious "specialists". There has to be a better argument.
E: u/PoptartEthernet mentioned that they removed Thimerosal from childrens vaccines so I hunted down a source for us.
Quite possibly the better arguement:
Even after thimerosal was removed from almost all childhood vaccines, autism rates continued to increase, which is the opposite of what would be expected if thimerosal caused autism.
Thimerosal was taken out of childhood vaccines in the United States in 2001.
Which angle is she taking? Big Pharma? Ingredients? Side effects? I can probably rustle up some good sources on any of these if you need them!
Why are they the first result in Google for so fucking much!?
Spots on babies neck. First result? Mumsnet, second result? NHS. WTF!?
When my wife's googling things and ends up on them. The following happens.
Mum: oh, it's because of this and need this medicine
Me: Where did you read that?
Me: look it up on NHS or something. These people are just randoms on the internet, they don't know anything
Mum: yeah but they're parents.
Me: So are we and we're googling it because we don't know anything
Mumsnet is intellectual cancer..
Never heard of the site so I hopped over for some lurking, straight to the vaccines forum. To my surprise, everyone there was vehemently pro vaccine. It was like straight of out the r/vaxxhappened comment threads. That made me feel more comfortable if this is a popular, albeit flawed, place for parent information. We should still talk to our doctors though...
Google should prioritise medical search results to organisations like the NHS to avoid people following the advice of some plebs on the internet.
My new favorite joke:
Q: Why was the anti-vax's toddler crying?
A: Mid-life crisis
Block the anti vax sites on your router, or however.
Saw this one the other day: I only bang chicks that are anti- vax, because 8 years of child support isn't as bad as 18.
My new favourite joke is your wife.
Sorry, I had to.
I hope she sees the light and you, your child and your wife have a fantastic life together... Just while being vaccinated.
new twist on a old Ethiopian joke
Q: How did the anti-vax parents celebrate their child's 4th birthday? A: By putting flowers on their grave
You get that kid vaccinated. I don't care if you don't tell your wife.
I told her I'm taking the kid to get vaccinated. period... she said she would divorce me. lol
Guess you’re gonna be a single dad.
Bust seriously, she’s newly pregnant and hormonal. You’ve got time to read together, the efficacy and safety of vaccines.
It’s exactly how anti-vaxxers work, they prey on the new mother hormones and fear of anything bad ever happening to their child
Bad like, I don’t know, polio?
Edit: please stop replying to me with anti-vax arguments.
No, autism, no one gets polio anymore
/s sorry for the confusion
No one gets polio anymore for now, but the anti-vaxxers are certainly working on it.
I've seen people with polio-like symptoms in japan, so I wouldn't say it's completely eradicated
Hot take: Big Pharma is supporting antivaxx bloggers to bring back preventable diseases so they can sell their obsolete stockpiles of polio/rubella/measles medicine
There's not even an endgame. It's just the stupid ignorant guiding the uniformed. The blind leading the dumb.
Beginning to be grateful for the time I got whooping cough as that was so viscerally awful that fear of my kids ever having to get it is going to override any other fears I might have.
My uncle had whooping cough when he was a kid. From my understanding the medicine at the time was still experimental? This would have been in the 60s. Either way, somehow the whole ordeal stunted his mental growth, and now he's got the mind set of an 8 year old ( this is how it was explained to me by my parents.) Growing up and going to my grandma's was always a blast as he was the coolest uncle ever. Now I'm 26, everytime i go visit i take him fishing or we look for arrowheads like we always used to. Still the coolest uncle ever.
I think it is a lack of oxygen because the coughing can be so intense they don't breath properly. It sounds pretty horrifying.
As you grew up your uncle turned into your nephew. Your very own Benjamin Button-esque story.
My uncle died from that in the early 1930s, shortly before the vaccine became available in rural Manitoba. He was three.
I have no patience for anti-vax fuckery.
There was as study that showed presenting an anti-vaxxer with facts doesn't work. Showing them the results of unvaccinated children contracting one of the infectious diseases they could have been vaccinated against is more effective.
Someone dig up that photo of two twins side by side (on mobile here) one vaccinated for small pox and the other not. If that doesn't work, I'm not sure anything would.
Two boys. "These two boys had been exposed to the same smallpox source. One had been vaccinated, the other hadn’t."
Two girls. "Two sisters infected with smallpox on the same day from the same source. Upper figure. Girl aged 21 years, vaccinated in infancy. Lower figure. Girl aged 15 years, unvaccinated."
See more about these photos here: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/one-vaccinated-one-not-smallpox/
Edit: thanks for the gold. Photos like these are hard to look at but they should be imprinted on everyone's mind. Spread them around as you can, you might save a life.
OP should print these pictures out and tape them all over the house. Leave them up on the computer so when she goes to shitpost on facebook with her dipshit friends she has to close out 20 pictures of mangled children suffering from preventable diseases.
Woah this is what smallpox is?! I always thought it was like chicken pox just a much higher chance of dying. That looks horrific.
I mean they didn't become anti-vax by listening to facts to begin with... these kinds of conspiracies attract a certain kind of gullible people.
I'm hoping this is the most accurate statement... she's definitely more hormonal and kinda irritable and different from that, but hopefully we can calmly discuss and maybe show some videos of children with preventable illnesses.
Talk to a doctor. Talk to 10 doctors. It’s important to do lots of research, but it’s more important to have credible sources.
But they're all Big Pharma who want to pump your babies full of unnecessary vaccines that they prep with dangerous chemicals that cause autism for no reason/because autism requires lifelong care, so they're lining their future pockets!
So the wife shouldn't be going to the doctor through any of this then. You know, since they can't be trusted.
True. If she's willing to divorce von_Bob over this, even after the hormones wear off, then she probably wouldn't have been a good mother in the first place.
i would find her sources and show her that the information is untrustworthy instead. Its way harder to incept the idea that vaccines are safe if she thinks her sources are equal in veracity.
If my wife became anti vax, in the event we actually had a child, I would try to work it out. If she didn't come around, I'm out the door. That shit is so crazy
And your child?
Joint custody. Staying with my wife just because we have a child together is more damaging than the two of us splitting up because of our differences
What's the opposite to having a heartbeat? That.
To shreds, you say?
If she really gets a divorce because of this I hope any decent judge would see you are a better parent since you’re not stupid and don’t put your kid in danger over this non sense.
Op better start collecting evidence then of her anti vax ways then.
Sounds worth the risk IMO. Vaccination is a group effort, and only works as such
Show her albums full of kids with these diseases. Most people dont even know how gruesome it is. Totally unfair and hypocritical that we are all vaccinated but wont let the kids be vaccinated.
To add to this, studies have shown that appealing to people on an emotional level (like through pics of sick kids) works better than just telling them facts and statistics.
She wont.....Probably. also, she gonna homeschool your little demon? Because your kid probably can't goto school, otherwise.
If only. The number of "personal belief" exemptions that antivaxers have lobbied into law is truly disturbing.
In my country (maybe state) your child cant go to any childcare if they arent vaccinated unless you have like a medical certificate authorised by like the national vaccination board (not just some guy going nah he no like needles)
The boarding facility/doggy daycare where we sometimes take our dog will not let him stay unless all hus vaccines are up to date...how is this not the law for children??
Same here. The law stating no vaccinations, no schooling goes into effect this year. The child has to be allergic to the shot, with multiple documents stating so, from doctors and the board, to be exempt.
“Take a mommy day. Treat yourself.” Then go bond with your kid by taking it to get vaccinated do it in the morning. Remove bandaid before returning home.
Go to the Winchester, have a pint, and wait for this to all blow over
Also go into your home router and block that fucking nonsense.
Take her to see a real doctor who has professional experience explaining these things and if she doesn't change her mind... Well then I feel sorry for you man. It honestly would be kind of a deal breaker for me. I say this with full conviction as a father of a 1 year old.
Ooh this is a great suggestion, also have the appointment taker put in the notes the reason for the visit so the start of anti-vacation documentation is in a non-augmentable place
Edit vaccination 🤣
In all seriousness, I would consider it.
Your wife has fallen in with a crowd that is one of the most reviled groups in the first world simply because they believe something that is supported by zero evidence while having to simultaneously ignore all of the concrete evidence that goes against their cult.
Except their 'cult' doesn't have your wife in isolation. She has access to every resource in the world, to the opinion of every doctor, healthcare professional, scientist and the like to ever express a public opinion about that kind of shit,
And she's choosing to completely ignore them and instead listen to a fucking forum group offering no tangible evidence.
It is seriously to the same extent of believing that the earth is flat despite all evidence to the contrary.
And she is so entrenched in this belief, with no actual evidence to back it up, and a mountain of evidence a mile long to actually dispove every single anti-vaccer claim, that she said she will divorce you if you get your kids vaccinated?
Fuck, if you recorded her saying that you could legit use that during arbitration for divorce proceedings to show that you have a solid reason for divorcing her.
It's that bad.
That is your wife.
What the fuck man.
I mean, best of luck to you. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
She’s gonna divorce you over some articles she read on the internet? Good riddance.
Congratulations on the baby, sorry about the divorce.
If you aren't in the position of being able to put your foot down, better start debunking. Whats more important...your marriage, or the health of your child.... hopfully you never have to choose, fuck.
It's important to get the child vaccinated. OP can argue about the efficacy and risk divorce after it's already been done.
Look up the Jim Jeffries story about him stealing his kid to get him divorced. Hilarity ensues.
As an MD - tell her to vaccinate the child. I have two and they have gotten all of their vaccinations. The mommy forums in general are no place to ask for advice, they are biased, the writers are not professionals and the overall lack of actual knowledge is amazing. If she has something to ask about pregnancy or birth feel free to PM me (I am Ob/Gyn), I can't answer about your health system as I work in Europe, but anything general goes fine. And again: Vaccinations work, anti-vax is about the same level of stupid as flat earth.
You are just a shill and want our insurance money. Nobody gets those weird diseases anyway. It’s just wrong to take a poor little infant and poke all those holes in them pumping them full of chemicals. I’m a mother and my maternal instincts are better than some stranger in a lab coat.
Basically word for word what an anti vaxxer said the other day. I can’t even
Nobody gets those weird diseases anyway.
... because of vaccines, do they think they were eradicated with magic?
Preaching to the choir man. It’s such primitive emotional irrational thought, makes my skin crawl thinking about such willful ignorance. Seems like humans have difficulty with cause and effect, correlation and causation. It’s the same thing that makes people stop taking their antibiotics when they start feeling better. “I feel better, therefore I didn’t need these after all” rather than “I feel better, these just be working.”
Not to change the subject, but another example I just thought of is: “most humans believe in god, therefore god exists” rather than “most humans believe in god, therefore there is something common in human psychology that causes most of us to believe in a god.”
There’s just a lot of primitive bugs in human brains embedded firmware. Maybe evolution will work some of them out.
Thank you so much for your generous offer of providing your professional input via PM! I'm hoping she's just hormonal and will be reasonable listening to our medical provider. I'm going to try and be patient, hear out her concerns, and provide fact based evidence for vaccines. We'll see... thank you so much!
My experience was that I began to distrust MDs after I was repeatedly pressured to circumcise my infant - despite the fact that this is not medically indicated or beneficial - and after a few dozen people were invited in to witness me give birth without my notification or permission among other things.
After moving to another state with more modern, and less paternalistic, medical practice, I calmed down and my kids are now shot full of all the diptheria vaxes.
Just like vaccines, degrees are not 100% proof against idiocy. I have met some monumentally stupid physicians, but they are the exception, at least in the city.
There's a reason they call it medical practice.
What do you call a doctor that graduated top of class? A doctor.
What do you call a doctor who barely graduated? A doctor.
Wow, sorry to hear about the pressure to circumcise. We decided to opt out of circumcision for my son, but got no pressure at all. The medical professionals were cool about it.
This was in Utah, and it's hard to articulate how, exactly, but the atmosphere just felt 20 years in the past. They had their way of doing things and the default was just to do their thing automatically without asking me. It was like they assumed cultural uniformity was everyone's goal. There were so many little things that were weird or unsettling but hard to put your finger on. It was like some bizarro stepford universe. I still don't know how many people watched me give birth, I only know that it was at least a dozen and my mom and husband assumed I had consented. I had never been asked, and with my eyes closed and lost in the intensity of transition, I didn't even know.
This was in Utah
That explains everything.
Literally a state run by a religion that just recently (last year) celebrated 40 years of allowing blacks to hold the "priesthood" and becoming equals to whites. Slavery was abolished in 1865* yet it took until 1978 for the church to accept blacks?
Oh, and women...did you know that during the Mormon temple ceremonies that women made covenants to their husbands directly to serve them? But... Men do not reciprocate. Technically this practice is being silently changed so women are no longer covenanting directly to their husband, but women are still largely unequal in the Mormon church.
While we're on the topic of Mormon temple weddings, did you know that if a man and woman are married in the temple and get divorced then only the man can marry in the temple again? Ok, well technically women can too but they need permission from their exhusband and then get approval from the church bigwigs. This is true even for my exwife even though I'm no longer a member of the church and have had my name removed from their records.
I could go on..but I'll stop there. Basically feeling 20 years in the past makes total sense in Utah
This was in Utah
Show pictures of measles. Show video of pertussis. It's fucking heart breaking. Worst case scenario get baby vaccinated without her knowledge. I know it's not the right thing to do, but is it really the wrong thing to do?
Pertussis videos are awful.
I feel a big part of the anti-vax movement is the fact that people haven't experienced that these diseases, and words like whooping cough and measles don't sound scary.
It's just a cough and measles are just chicken pox! /S
My daughter was 7 weeks early, and stayed in the NICU for over a month (due to prematurity).
I made the mistake of watching a pertussis video once she was home and I was holding her. I started sobbing uncontrollably. I was dying to reach for that child and comfort them, but their parent was already there doing everything. There was literally nothing to do but hold them.
My anxiety kicked into overdrive at that point as now I'm afraid to take my infant out in public knowing there are people who might put her through that. I hate anti vaxxers so much.
In Ontario, Canada I was just told to get the TDAP booster while pregnant (I’m 27 weeks) by my midwives. They have released new research that shows pregnant women who receive the booster will pass the immunity on to their infant. It helps protect against pertussis until the baby is old enough for their vaccine schedule to start.
What fantastic news! I can DO something to protect my baby before it’s born.
Side note: mommy forums are already blowing up with people refusing to get vaccines while pregnant because... pro childhood disease is in?
It sucks, those diseases are horrific, but isolation isn't the answer, either. Exposure to normal germs is part of how the immune system learns to work properly. Plus there's a lot to be said about the social aspects of new and different people cooing at and saying hi to babies. Thankfully even with anti-vaxx idiots out there, these diseases are still very uncommon.
When I had viral pneumonia, I coughed so hard I cracked 2 ribs. That lasted 3 weeks. I cant imagine what toll a disease called the "100 day cough" would inflict, and wish it on no child. If there is a way to vaccinate against a disease like pertussis, you bet your ass im getting it for my kids.
There's an outbreak in Brooklyn of measles because a bunch of Orthodox Jews decided not to vaccinate.
Fucken measles. Something we had erradicated from America.
Show her pictures and videos of people with measles and iron lung. Inform her that people lie on the internet. Ask her if she really wants to hurt her child by not protecting it.
My friends baby was one of kids who caught the measles at Disneyland. I want to punch the antivaxxers. The kids ok and turned out fine. They also hate antivaxxers. And they are some of the nicest people I know.
Let her read that.
Ah man I hate this one. It makes me tear up with sadness and anger. I take every screen grab with a grain of salt because there is a very real chance they're fake but I'm sure that exact scenario has played out regardless. The thing that really breaks my heart is vitamin k is literally a vitamin that helps blood coagulate, thus, vitamin Koagulation. How can you be anti vitamins? Might as well be anti fucking oxygen. People's irrational fears and anxieties are the thing that will eventually doom humanity.
What is the "no eye good" and the no vitamin k parts? I'm a dummy about new borns.
Eye *goop is antibiotic eye ointment that newborns get because some vaginal infections etc can cause blindness or conjunctivitis. Vitamin K is a shot that babies get to help their blood clot. They're born with low levels of vitamin K and without it are prone to bleeding. So without a vitamin K shot, an otherwise survivable injury can become a death sentence.
Edit: I'm not saying every injury becomes fatal without vitamin K, I was referring to the story in the post.
This seems like we missed a spot in our evolution
Newborn babies are a mess. It's a miracle we aren't extinct yet.
It's not very common, if you don't get the shot your baby still only has about a 1 in 10,000 chance of dying from hemorrhaging, so there's not a strong evolutionary pressure against it.
There's a much higher chance (about 1 in 100) of ending up with non-fatal bleeding though, which is why we give the shot since it's harmless and the benefits outweigh the risks.
"No eye good" should be "no eye goo." It's an antibiotic eye ointment put on the newborn to prevent eye infections. Vitamin K is given to babies minutes after birth. It helps their blood clot properly. My kids got both. I can almost see the point of people who say no to the antibiotic, but the no Vitamin K is just stupid.
It's hands-down one of the easiest preventable deaths in a newborn's early days. Dying like that is heart breaking and should never, NEVER happen when it's literally just a fucking vitamin dose between happy and healthy and seizures and death.
That fucked me up.
Smells like divorce to me
My cousin's 2 year old immuno-compromised daughter died 2 days ago. She is couldn't get vaccines and relied on others to get them to protect her. Herd immunity only works when everyone does their part. She shouldn't have died. Get your child vaccinated.
Jesus... I'm sorry to hear this. THIS is exactly why "I would die on this hill" and am getting my kid vaccinated regardless of what she says.
I can live with her divorcing me for it, but I can't live with knowing I contributed to someone dying despite being able to prevent it easily.
Edit: autocorrect changed "kid" to "kudos"
Protip, do the vaccination before the divorce. Married dads have all the rights that the mom has. You don't need her permission to get your kid vaccinated. So just go get it done.
If you divorce first, you run the risk of her removing your ability to take your kid to the doctor.
If only our legal system worked well enough to say, "Your honor, I should retain the right to take my child to the doctor because his mother has already made the stupid choice to forego vaccinations."
Denying science and neglecting healthcare should absolutely be taken into consideration by the courts for custody
In my case it was. My ex-wife was an anti-vaccination proponent, and even had me on the bandwagon until I did a small amount of reading, and it ended up hurting her in custody hearings more than she could have ever dreamed. Needless to say, the kids are healthy, no thanks to her.
Good on you OP! I would always sacrifice my marriage over the life of my child. Get them vaccinated in secret.
Fuck. I feel like usually people just come in here and say something like "some kids can't get vaxxed and they'll die" and you're over here actually knowing someone who's kid died. :( My condolences
My wife was adopted from Moscow. She had whooping cough as a baby over there. I'm glad I never have to worry about her being anti-vax. She says (and I agree with her) that anyone who doesn't vaccinate their children should lose custody of them.
As a pro-vaccine mom, I can tell you pregnant women be crazy. Something about being pregnant robs you of brain cells and critical thinking skills. She may just come around with time, but if she doesn't, get that kid vaccinated no matter what, cause that anti-vax shit is fucking stupid. Good luck, Dad!
Sucks that 'pro-vaccine' is appears to be an actual thing now. It's scary that there are actually people that believe that this is an actual debate and being on either side is normal, because you read and hear about it so much. Almost seems like it's 50-50. In reality, it's an extremely vocal, crazy group of idiots that gets a lot of attention because of how annoying, dangerous and ridiculous this all is. Vaccination is not something conflicted or debated within science AT ALL. Fuck these times, and those people. It's like a modern mental illnes.
Sucks that 'pro-vaccine' is appears to be an actual thing now.
No, Karen - I'm pro having-our-kid-grow-up-to-be-older-than-3
While anti vaxx is particularly distribing, we seem to be having this problem throughout society. The idea that we have to respect everyone's opinion has somehow morphed into respecting everyone's position. Those are different things. So many people seem ready to believe whatever facts they want to believe.
It's really a problem.
Yes, and it is exhausting. My field in environmental science, and within the field there is no debate that man made climate change is rapidly altering every ecosystem and causing global mass extinction. Yet every time I go on Facebook, every idiot is out there shouting about how climate change is natural or fake or whatever. Makes me want to fucking kill myself.
How does one go about telling a crazy pregnant woman they are acting crazy? My wife had three kids and it just seems.... dangerous.
Try starting with “now look here bitch” and see how that goes.
But you said bitch though?
This is what kills me, right. A big argument is that "Oh no, they'll get autism!" Well, Karen, even if that's true, that's a hell a lot better than measles. Autism can be challenging, but it encompasses a huge range of behaviors and diagnoses. It's not a fucking death sentence.
First step is not to take any relationship advice from redditors.
Shut that shit down. Make it a hill to die on. As parents, it’s your responsibility to protect your children. That includes protecting them from measles and whooping cough. Find a video on YouTube of an infant with whooping cough. Ask her if she wants that to be your kid.
Edit: Do you have any family members around that are old enough to remember polio and diphtheria outbreaks? Growing up with my grandma (who would now be a great great grandmother if she hadn’t kicked the bucket) telling stories about her childhood in rural Depression era Alabama seriously influenced me. Most of her stories ended with that kid dying from something we prevent with vaccines now.
Measles and pertussis. Fucking awful shit! Why would someone subject their child to that?!?!
Because they believe "it's not that bad." Books like Melanie's Marvelous Measles helps them confirm their ideas that it's not so bad. Or they're more afraid of autism, or mercury (even though there's more mercury in fish than in vaccines), or whatever other boogeyman they've decided is scary. Or vaccines aren't 100% perfect in preventing or in safety, so they'd rather take the chance/not take the chance.
Either way, it's stupidity and they should be smacked in the face with a fish.
Oh shit, haven’t seen anyone get slapped in the face with a fish since the IRC days. That is some Old Testament shit right there.
I just looked through the wikipedia page for Melanie's Marvelous Measles and I am just ... speechless. You literally can not make that shit up.
To quote the summary:
Tina's mother encourages Tina to visit Melanie, because catching measles would be a good thing for Tina. Tina tells her mother that the other children are frightened of getting measles, but her mother reassures her by explaining that catching measles is a good thing for most children: "Many wise people believe measles make the body stronger and more mature for the future". She suggests some carrot juice and melon might help Melanie recover. She says that being scared of the disease is "a bit like being scared of the dark".
I ... what?
Because they have never seen it happen. Vaccines work so well that we forgot what they protect us from.
As much bullshit as she has read on the mommy forums, there is 10x as much peer reviewed, scientifically respected information that debunks it. Find that information and use it.
The thing that really boggles my mind is that the people choosing not to vaccinate their kids were themselves vaccinated as children. It didn’t hurt you did it?! So of course it’s not gonna hurt your kid.
Don’t let your wife get away with it. Your child deserves to not die or be disabled by a horrible preventable disease.
What's her biggest concern?
I spoke with someone once who's biggest concern was autism. So I asked her if she really wanted to gamble her child's life over some possibility that he might be socially awkward - like how screwed up do you have to be that you prefer your child having a very real chance of death vs social awkwardness?
Same. The worst thing that’s come out of my autism is the fact that other people don’t like it. I like it just fine.
As a step father to a suspected autistic child it drives me fucking crazy that no-one can just stick a label to my daughter saying she is autistic. Instead they say she displays behaviour that is on the spectrum.....
Then fucking give her that label so I can finally get the fucking help I need to raise her. It's a huge pain in the arse and really frustrating. We do eventually get there but instead of a 10minute homework sheet we sit there for an hour or more trying to answer the first few questions... Money is the worst. She can't understand 20p vs £20...
If you have £20 and spend £19.80 How much change do you have? = Twenty pounds is her answer then £2 and the answers start to go downhill. It's such a struggle but persistence really does pay off. I just need to breath sometimes.
I had worries when I first became a parent. Luckily my childcare didn't give a shit and required all the shots. We decided to space them out a bit, so if there was a reaction, it would be less. (Made sense to me at the time) It made me feel so much better. I wish the pediatrician had sat me down and talked through my concerns and explain why the info I was finding was bullshit.
That's my recommendation. Have a meeting with a doctor you trust and have your wife go through her concerns. Let the professional explain it. She might take that better. Also, pregnancy hormones make you insane. This might actually be a phase.
Good luck with crazy. That's a bummer.
Tell her she’s not allowed any pain meds during childbirth and that’ll sort that shit right out. They are made by big pharma too after all.
A lot of anti vaxxers also value free birthing at home, so I wouldn’t encourage that at all.
My FIL is a OB-GYN and if you ever want to get him going, just mention midwifery/home birthing. The reason we go to hospitals to have babies is because you/your child's chances of dying go down significantly.
Although the midwifery inside hospitals is a big thing now. Basically midwives that are practicing clinicians, which is a good thing.
We did this. Almost saved a fucking ton of money (why we didn't at the end). But we also aren't lunatics and we did it at a hospital, the anesthesia was administered by a doctor, and when he needed to be in the special nursery (not quite NICU) it was doctors who looked over him. But a midwife delivered and we saw a midwife moving up to the pregnancy, no complaints at all from me.
Of course the kicker is we ended up not saving a dime since a few extra days in special care made us hit the out of pocket max so seeing a doctor instead would have been a wash
After the baby is born, you can take the child to the doctor and get it vaccinated without her present. Might piss her off, but a pissed off wife is better than child dying of a preventable disease.
We took our kid to Disneyland when he was 9 months old (MIL paid for tickets ). Well a week later,the whole measles outbreak started(a few years ago). We were freaking out! There's nothing I can't stand more now than ignorant people.
You: Honey, why don't you wan't to vaccinate our child?
She: Because they're not safe! They cause Autism!
You: Honey. Your parents vaccinated you. My parents vaccinated me. Our baby will be fine.
She: But what if our baby becomes Autistic?
You: Our baby could just as easily be born with a birth defect or with a heart murmur or something. It doesn't matter; we will love him or her so much. Being a parent is a challenge and our love is stronger than the fear people on the internet want to generate. Forget those forums. Here. I got this: What to Expect When Expecting. Let's read it together.
Show her a video of a baby with whooping cough. It’s terrifying.
Tell her to read the obituaries, that will change her mind.
It's not a cult. Your wife is just falling to the troll brainwashing trap. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/23/russian-trolls-spread-vaccine-misinformation-on-twitter
No, there is definitely a cult. This whole thread is talking about the anti vaxx part but seriously, the mom-blog bullshit needs to be put in hard check. It's a horrendous circle jerk of lunacy.
Ugh I'm pregnant and this shits me. Reddit is relatively good (shoutout to /r/babybumps and /r/pregnant) but on Facebook I see so many people rejecting even the Vitamin K shot for their newborns, which can have devastating effects. If anyone wants to read/buy a book covering the science, I can recommend The Science of Mom, which also has a blog. Here's the page on Vitamin K shots. FWIW, I'm in no way affiliated, just a mum-to-be who is very pro-science and very active online.
YOU do what YOU need to do to ensure the safety of YOUR child.
She divorces you, you still keep up with the vaccinations. Im sure she was vaccinated, have her look up some photos or what those vaccinations prevent from happening, the horribly painful death that the kids would have to go through if they didn’t get the vaccinations and for one of those horrible things they prevent.
This is not something you can compromise on, get them vaccinated.
As someone with autism who had a grandfather with polio, please vaccinate your kid. I don’t believe my autism was caused by getting any shots, but I know my grandfather suffered from his disease infinitely more than I have. He lived a long life, but it was never quite as fulfilling as anyone would hope. He spent a large part of his childhood in an iron lung and he always had a cane when I would visit him because his legs were weak. He’s lucky that he could walk at all. And he was always a reminder of what things could have been like for anyone before the vaccine was there (he was a teenager when the vaccine was developed). My dad (his son) and I would never wish what he went through on anybody. And I know you would never want that for your baby.